Another reduction in benefits

I came across this issue on another RV forum.
www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.htm...l?R=0900006480a60f36

Basically, it's a proposal that would reduce the current free or 50% off fee for day use and campground charges for USFS facilities for those who hold the America the Beautiful Senior and Access cards.

If it is read with deligence, you will find that it is full of holes so big that one could drive a Abram tank or C5 thru it.

I realize that the webmaster for this site is engaged in concessionaire employement. I respect that and I would welcome an opposing view point. However, I do not believe that we "seniors" should have our entitlements curtained to enhance their profit and loss statements.

We speak out about military campground inequities on a regular basis. I think this is an issue that also deserves our attention.

I didn't read the reg you attached, but I don't know a little about how programs work. The bottom line being that not enough people are accessing our national forests and parks, etc. to generate funding. You can look at this a couple of different ways. One, we vets "put our foot down" and make a big stink about our entitlements, the programs suffer for lack of funding and we start losing those areas because they don't have the fund sites to maintain them to a safe standard or we can compromise a little, put some money in the kettle on the way through the gate and help support the services we use. Either way neither one is "just and proper", but would you rather complain about it at the campsite with the view of the lake or sitting in a far off corner of a Walmart parking lot?

IF you notice where the money goes from this reduction - into the profit pocket of the vendors ... it does not go to the feds to help offset the costs of the national forest and parks system.

UNLESS: We figure, and probably not correct, that the vendor "will improve' the CG with this extra money -- and I've not seen one yet that did ... the fees increase when a vendor takes charge (ALWAYS), but the service generally falls off because to improve the service cost money, and the vendor wants to keep as much of the revenue as possible.

Another interesting component of this falls out like this:

Lots of seniors in the parks spending half -- okay, take away the half-off, and (probably) many of the sites will now be empty. So, which is better, a half-price paid site, or an empty site that CAN BE rented full price if someone shows up. I'll take the for sure discount patron because two of those fill two sites and that is the same as one full site (and if you have vacant sites, you win even at half price) SO, this makes no sense to me, but it does to the bean counters because they never count an 'absent camper' as any thing - so it does not effect the budget ...

But they do count the half-time patron as if he actually appeared and paid full price -- but they are WRONG ...
As you can see, this sticks in my craw, and I've brought this subject up in the past when the feds were just beginning to think about it -- now, it's almost done and the vendors WIN ... I wrote a letter to my state senator (both) and said my vote counts for NO on reducing the discounnt benefit for those that qualify, and thereby, need a discount the most. And if the discount is taken away, the money should go DIRECTLY to site improvements, NOT to the vendor that manages the park.

If you do not give the lower income folks a discount, they can't do much with their lives - and I for one say, if it's there, share it with everyone ... and if someone can't pay full-price, give them a discount, and if they can't afford the discount (really hurting) let them in on my nickle ....I should have a few nickles coming for standing in the line of fire defending these very parks from low-lifes that want our land -- if you want it, come and get it if you think you can, but you better carry a lunch and dinner, because to get it is a long day job, and you won't make dinner either if you start this day with that in mind as a goal.

So this one woke up my 'irritator' today !! Any more ?? Might as well get 'em all, as I'm already up now with a piss-off already steamimg the morning !!!

Yes, I'm an EMPLOYEE of a concessionaire. I really HATE talking politics, because I'm sure my following comments will offend someone. I DO understand both sides of this issue.

Personally, I don't want the discounts to go away either. But also working for a concessionaire, I see how the system works (although many citizens don't like it). Basically, we need to understand that although the LAND is owned by the USFS, the operation of the campground is by a concessionaire is a BUSINESS (like it or not).

From my job, a few comments that were made are incorrect:

that the vendor "will improve' the CG with this extra money -- and I've not seen one yet that did

As part of the business agreement (special use permit) with the USFS, a portion of the income (before expenses) goes tot he USFS. IF the USFS manages the program correctly, this money is spent directly back into those same campgrounds for improvements. If not managed correctly by the USFS (not the concessionaire), then this money goes back to Washington DC (the black hole). Where I manage, I spent over $60,000 on campground improvements. Only $171 went to the black hole.

and if you have vacant sites, you win even at half price

Where I manage, not true. It costs the concessionaire $$ to provide cleaning and bathroom supplies, to have the garbage picked up, landfill fees, and to pump the toilets. With no campers, the above expenses don't occur. The only constant expense with or without a camper are wages. Generally, the concessionaire loses money on a half-price camper. It's actually cheaper to have the camp site be empty than to have the expenses created by a half--price camper.

I believe the change in law changes the discount from 50% to 10%. This is more inline of other BUSINESSES. How many campgrounds ran by a business give a 50% discount? Not many. Remember, although the land is USFS, a concessionaire is a business. The law will also remove free access to "standard services", like day use areas, beaches, and boat ramps that charge a fee. Again, how many private businesses let you use their facilities everyday for free?

If the concessionaire doesn't make a profit once and awhile, they will simply walk from the permit of managing those campgrounds. Without a concessionaire managing the campground, those campgrounds will be closed. The government can't afford to run them, which is why they issue permits to businesses.

You would be surprised how expensive it is to run these facilities. In my case, I'm allowed to charge $15 for a RV dump. If a RV dumps 100 gallons of waste, it costs me (the business) $50 to pump out that same 100 gallons. I LOSE money every time the RV dump is used, and I get complaints all the time that $15 is too much. I pay the same 50 cents per gallon of waste to have the vault toilets pumped (hopefully just once per year, but sometimes more). I have over 120 vault toilets to manage. My area gets a yearly $25,000 bill from the county for a "solid waste tax". Dumpsters are emptied twice a week, and a cost of $120 PER dumpster, PER pickup. With over 100 dumpsters, this is a huge monthly bill. A concessionaire pays for ALL expenses for repairs and maintenance. A picnic table costs $900. A food locker costs $850. I fire grill costs $600. We're required to paint all tables and bathrooms every 3 years (33% per year). This is a lot of paint, which isn't cheap. I had solar panel stolen from a water well. This is still the concessionaires responsibility. Another $3000+ expense! So far, I've been lucky and haven't had a well pump need replacing.

With over $500,000 revenue in my area, I "may" come out this year in making the concessionaire I work for about $10,000 profit. But that's "okay" with this company. I (the company) employed over 16 employees this past year and provided over 28,000 campers with over 33 clean and safe campgrounds. My area had a 99% excellent rating from returned guest comment cards.

Bottom line - we (the public) expect the government to give us camping free or at a very low expense. I do too. But in reality, it's nothing but a business. The days of the USFS getting funding for campgrounds is gone. What little funding they do get, goes towards fighting fires. IF.. IF there's not many forest fires in a season, then the USFS gets to upgrade the campgrounds with the left over money.

One thing that really does "jerk my chain" is when I hear that concessionaire's do a worst job than the USFS. I challenge you to go look at a campground and bathroom of a facility operated by the USFS, then go look at a facility operated by a concessionaire. You'll see the difference!

Okay, I'll get off my soap box. Go ahead and bring on the flames. But this is all you will hear from me on this topic. I WILL not reply or get into a debate on this. However, I repeat, the personal side of me also wishes for the discounts to remain.

I don't know your pain Larry, but I worked for the USFS on the Mendocino 2 different seasons and I've seen a road mainteneance contrator go through the same type of ordeal. Until someone sees both sides, it really is hard for them to grasp and it isn't a good situation.

Okay - great for discussion, no one gets upset ... and I ran a business for a number of years too, so do know both sides.

Here's my issue. I have a GA card that says "good for the life of the cardholder" ... that card I received as a DAV, same as lots of us here. But, now, it suddenly is no good.

All I want is the bargain we made ... don't renege. Nothing extra, just don't take it away because the feds or the concessionaire needs more money to run it.

Any time some one give me back my health, and the money I could have earned without my injuries, I'll be more than happy to pay double the CG fees - just don't renege on the bargain. And that's what's happening here -- I got a promise, and I gave my share, along with plenty of others guys on this site ... now, part of that 'reward' if you will, is being withdrawn.

Can't reduce our COLA this year, it's already '0' so we lose a benefit instead, and that's the same thing as reducing our pay, in one sense. I'm off my wagon too larry --

And just one thing about the 'fees' -- fees come with the campsite, and no one dumps 100 gallons a day, so the fees for a week (say $150 or so) count more than $15 for dump fee. Vendors can make the numbers read in their favor by creating the category costs in sections - so all the numbers can be interpreted in different ways - just like the above example... Not jumping on you larry, just making the point that these fees can come and go in different columns sometimes, and read as cost and effect of one camper night virsus a monthly fee and count different ways ... One guy might come in a dump for $15, but most of your dump tank is filled with longer terms than overnighters. So if you have 25 for a week, then that counts against one overnighter as a balancing factor.

Okay' nuff said -